Howcome Videos In Cab Aren't Allowed?
- Thread starter Turbolag
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Ohhhhh ok. I think I understand now.
Its not illegal, but the company has no reason for you to be aboard the train.
The ships are the same way. You used to be able to tour ships that were in the port docked, but now you can't. The reasoning is, there is no reason for a person not working with the boat to be on board.
Wow.... a bottle of alcohol!?
I was wondering what the crew members would do if they are stopped for a while.
Even if they are stopped and no operating the train, its illegal for them to read literature of their choice or play on the phone or laptop?
I liked the movie, but I could never get past the "reason" for the train running away. The throttle wouldn't apply itself, so I thought that was kinda funny..... The throttle can't apply itself right? There isn't cruise control is there? I don't see how there could be a cruise control when the throttle has fixed positions. Not like an accelerator that has a spring to push it back out.
And I would imagine if a crew member left a "moving" train to change a signal they would be fired on the spot?
Short and simple version. He thought he'd put the train into dynamic braking. When you do that, what was the throttle now controls how much brake is applied. So he thought he was giving it full dynamic brakes, instead he gave it full throttle. Up until that time, I suspect that you would have many folks tell you that sort of runaway train simply wasn't possible. But it was, and it did happen.
As with pretty much anything Hollywood, it then got exaggerated to a huge degree.
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Ohhhhh ok. I think I understand now.
Its not illegal, but the company has no reason for you to be aboard the train.
The ships are the same way. You used to be able to tour ships that were in the port docked, but now you can't. The reasoning is, there is no reason for a person not working with the boat to be on board.
My son has a commercially produced DVD about the Santa Fe line over Raton Pass on the Colorado-New Mexico border. A portion of the DVD featured Amtrak's Southwest Chief going over the pass. It was shot over several days and included cab sequences of the engineer in action.
One quick shot showed the top of the control consul, which looked like a counter or desk top with several items scattered on it. Something in the clutter caught my eye so I backed up the DVD, paused it, and studied the screen with closer scrutiny. Sitting amid the clutter was a Penthouse or Hustler magazine.
Boy, the Whiskey Bottle would sure get a guy fired fast. Not saying I don't believe you, I know better than that. I am saying that's a risky game.
As for the magazines, trains can spend a lot of time waiting. The crew needs something to do while they wait. Now the usual company policy is that only official railroad publications can be read. Timetables, rulebooks and the like. But it's possible that some of the more experienced guys have memorized the rulebook, so they break the rules and read unofficial publications. The choice of reading material varies from crewmember to crewmember. Hunting and fishing magazines are popular, as are car magazines and lots of other subjects. Some publications may not be suitable for family viewing.
Wow.... a bottle of alcohol!?
I was wondering what the crew members would do if they are stopped for a while.
Even if they are stopped and no operating the train, its illegal for them to read literature of their choice or play on the phone or laptop?
My son has a commercially produced DVD about the Santa Fe line over Raton Pass on the Colorado-New Mexico border. A portion of the DVD featured Amtrak's Southwest Chief going over the pass. It was shot over several days and included cab sequences of the engineer in action.
One quick shot showed the top of the control consul, which looked like a counter or desk top with several items scattered on it. Something in the clutter caught my eye so I backed up the DVD, paused it, and studied the screen with closer scrutiny. Sitting amid the clutter was a Penthouse or Hustler magazine.
Boy, the Whiskey Bottle would sure get a guy fired fast. Not saying I don't believe you, I know better than that. I am saying that's a risky game.
As for the magazines, trains can spend a lot of time waiting. The crew needs something to do while they wait. Now the usual company policy is that only official railroad publications can be read. Timetables, rulebooks and the like. But it's possible that some of the more experienced guys have memorized the rulebook, so they break the rules and read unofficial publications. The choice of reading material varies from crewmember to crewmember. Hunting and fishing magazines are popular, as are car magazines and lots of other subjects. Some publications may not be suitable for family viewing.
I liked the movie, but I could never get past the "reason" for the train running away. The throttle wouldn't apply itself, so I thought that was kinda funny..... The throttle can't apply itself right? There isn't cruise control is there? I don't see how there could be a cruise control when the throttle has fixed positions. Not like an accelerator that has a spring to push it back out.
And I would imagine if a crew member left a "moving" train to change a signal they would be fired on the spot?
one_wire
UP Sparky
Old bottles of booze aren't uncommon finds on locomotives that are at least 20 years old. With so many nooks and crannies, there's no telling what you'll find.
As far as what crews can do when the train is stopped, you won't find them on a laptop usually because there's no wifi in the boonies, but they are allowed to use cell phones if the train is stopped, the reverser is centered or removed, and brakes are applied. Usually the conductor will step out on the walkway to call for a ride. But out in the middle of nowhere, nobody's really going to know anyway.
Now for the interesting explanation. How can a locomotive run away and not apply a penalty application with no one in the cab. It's actually pretty simple. The movie does a good job explaining it.
The crewman placed the independent brake in full application. The automatic brakes are irrelevant because during switching and yard operations, the air lines aren't hooked up between cars.
The crewman applied the independent and notched the throttle into 8, actually thinking he was going into dynamic notch 8. Dynamic brake 8 would have slowed the unit down to a crawl. Instead, he notched it up to full power.
The unit's tractive effort overcame the brakes and burnt them completely out. However, since the independent was applied, the alerter never went off, thus no penalty application which also automatically places the unit into idle regardless of throttle and reverser position.
So, to summarize, independent application + reverser forward and throttle to 8 = runaway train.
This all happened in real life just outside of Toledo, Ohio back in 2001 except the culprit was an SD40-2 instead of 2 AC4400's.
Wiki: CSX 8888 incident
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSX_8888_incident
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As far as what crews can do when the train is stopped, you won't find them on a laptop usually because there's no wifi in the boonies, but they are allowed to use cell phones if the train is stopped, the reverser is centered or removed, and brakes are applied. Usually the conductor will step out on the walkway to call for a ride. But out in the middle of nowhere, nobody's really going to know anyway.
Now for the interesting explanation. How can a locomotive run away and not apply a penalty application with no one in the cab. It's actually pretty simple. The movie does a good job explaining it.
The crewman placed the independent brake in full application. The automatic brakes are irrelevant because during switching and yard operations, the air lines aren't hooked up between cars.
The crewman applied the independent and notched the throttle into 8, actually thinking he was going into dynamic notch 8. Dynamic brake 8 would have slowed the unit down to a crawl. Instead, he notched it up to full power.
The unit's tractive effort overcame the brakes and burnt them completely out. However, since the independent was applied, the alerter never went off, thus no penalty application which also automatically places the unit into idle regardless of throttle and reverser position.
So, to summarize, independent application + reverser forward and throttle to 8 = runaway train.
This all happened in real life just outside of Toledo, Ohio back in 2001 except the culprit was an SD40-2 instead of 2 AC4400's.
Wiki: CSX 8888 incident
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSX_8888_incident
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Short and simple version. He thought he'd put the train into dynamic braking. When you do that, what was the throttle now controls how much brake is applied. So he thought he was giving it full dynamic brakes, instead he gave it full throttle. Up until that time, I suspect that you would have many folks tell you that sort of runaway train simply wasn't possible. But it was, and it did happen.
As with pretty much anything Hollywood, it then got exaggerated to a huge degree.
one_wire
UP Sparky
Exactly. When the engineer (not hostlers like the movie says. Hostlers aren't allowed to drive trains, only locomotive consists) saw that he was going to run a switch and didn't have enough room to stop short, he attempted to place the unit into full dynamics and applied the independent. Considering the configuration of the dynamic brake control, I could understand how it might be possible.
Here's an illustration of the SD40-2's brake stand. Notice #6 is your throttle/dynamic brake (lever to the right is throttle, left is dynamic). #7 is the power control and #8 is the reverser.
By placing lever #6 to the left and lever #7 all the way left, that's full dynamic brakes, which is what the engineer thought he did. When in fact he had #6 to the right and #7 all the way left, thus placing the little engine that could into full power and away she went.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Here's an illustration of the SD40-2's brake stand. Notice #6 is your throttle/dynamic brake (lever to the right is throttle, left is dynamic). #7 is the power control and #8 is the reverser.
By placing lever #6 to the left and lever #7 all the way left, that's full dynamic brakes, which is what the engineer thought he did. When in fact he had #6 to the right and #7 all the way left, thus placing the little engine that could into full power and away she went.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Regarding magazines and other media, here is the applicable rule from the current GCOR in effect on BNSF:
And here is the rule on electronic devices:
2.21 Electronic Devices
This rule outlines the requirements for use of electronic devices. As used in this rule, the following definitions apply:
Electronic Device—means an electronic or electrical device used to conduct oral, written, or visual communication; place or receive a telephone call; send or read an electronic mail message or text message; look at pictures; read a book or other written material; play a game; navigate the Internet; navigate the physical world; play, view, or listen to a video; play, view or listen to a television broadcast; play or listen to music; execute a computational function; or, perform any other function that is not necessary for the health or safety of the person and that entails the risk of distracting the employee or another employee from a safety-related task.
Railroad operating employee—means an individual who is:
The use of any electronic device is prohibited if that use would interfere with an employee’s performance of safety-related duties.
A. Personal or Railroad-Supplied Electronic Devices
Personal or railroad-supplied electronic devices may be used as necessary:
B. Personal Electronic Devices
Except when deadheading in other than a controlling locomotive, railroad operating employees on duty (including supervisors) must have each electronic device turned off and stowed out of sight with any earpiece removed from the ear when:
A railroad operating employee may use an electronic device only for voice communication, texting or emailing when:
When communication has been completed turn device off and stow out of sight.
A personal stand-alone camera may be used to take a photograph of a safety hazard or a violation of a rail safety law, regulation, order, or standard, provided that:
A personal stand-alone calculator, digital watch whose only purpose is as a timepiece and medical devices that are consistent with the railroad’s standards may be used as necessary in the
performance of duties.
C. Railroad-Supplied Electronic Devices
After a job safety briefing including all members of the crew determines railroad-supplied devices can be used safely, railroad operating employees may use such devices to send or receive work related information with:
Railroad operating employees must not use a railroad-supplied electronic device for purposes other than which it was intended or while:
The first bullet under 2.21 B is new. Until a few weeks ago, you couldn't even use your phone or other electronic device to refer to a rule unless everyone was in the cab and the train was stopped. This revision is a step in the right direction toward common sense, but still makes it impossible to refer to a rule when a crew member is on the ground.
It's also interesting (and important) to note that railroad operating employees "may use an electronic device only for voice communication, texting or emailing." Browsing the internet, facebooking, posting to discussion forums, watching YouTube or playing video games is not included in that list, and that includes when you're in a siding doing nothing but waiting for your turn to go.
BNSF has equipped most of their locomotives with a "purple box" called the Wi-Pu by Wi-Tronix, which is capable of detecting any phone or wireless activity in or near the cab. If your phone gets bumped and powers on, then begins searching for a wireless network you are busted. The device can be programmed to flag such activity and report it via satellite to the appropriate company officer(s).
So, yes it sucks that cab rides (on Class I railroads anyway) are pretty much a thing of the past and that cab videos are also not likely to surface anytime soon unless the author is already no longer employed by the railroad. But that's the way it is.
1.10 Games, Reading, or other Media
Employees on duty must not:
This does not prohibit employees from having such material in their personal luggage.
Employees on duty must not:
• Play Games
• Read magazines, newspapers, or other literature not related to their duties when:
• Read magazines, newspapers, or other literature not related to their duties when:
- On a train or engine.
- Performing safety related activities.
or
- It would delay or interfere with required duties.
- Performing safety related activities.
or
- It would delay or interfere with required duties.
This does not prohibit employees from having such material in their personal luggage.
And here is the rule on electronic devices:
2.21 Electronic Devices
This rule outlines the requirements for use of electronic devices. As used in this rule, the following definitions apply:
Electronic Device—means an electronic or electrical device used to conduct oral, written, or visual communication; place or receive a telephone call; send or read an electronic mail message or text message; look at pictures; read a book or other written material; play a game; navigate the Internet; navigate the physical world; play, view, or listen to a video; play, view or listen to a television broadcast; play or listen to music; execute a computational function; or, perform any other function that is not necessary for the health or safety of the person and that entails the risk of distracting the employee or another employee from a safety-related task.
Railroad operating employee—means an individual who is:
• engaged in or connected with the movement of a train including a hostler,
• a train employee providing commuter or intercity rail passenger transportation,
or
• subject to hours of service governing train service employees.
• a train employee providing commuter or intercity rail passenger transportation,
or
• subject to hours of service governing train service employees.
The use of any electronic device is prohibited if that use would interfere with an employee’s performance of safety-related duties.
A. Personal or Railroad-Supplied Electronic Devices
Personal or railroad-supplied electronic devices may be used as necessary:
• To respond to an emergency situation involving the operation of the railroad
• To respond to an emergency encountered while on-duty
• As a communication device in the event of radio malfunction
• To refer to a railroad rule, special instruction, timetable or other directive using the digital storage and display function while inside the controlling cab of a locomotive, train or on-track equipment after there has been a job safety briefing and all crew members agree that it is safe to do so.
Other than railroad operating employees may use electronic devices in the body of a business car or passenger train when it will not interfere with an employee’s performance of safety-related duties.
• To respond to an emergency encountered while on-duty
• As a communication device in the event of radio malfunction
• To refer to a railroad rule, special instruction, timetable or other directive using the digital storage and display function while inside the controlling cab of a locomotive, train or on-track equipment after there has been a job safety briefing and all crew members agree that it is safe to do so.
Other than railroad operating employees may use electronic devices in the body of a business car or passenger train when it will not interfere with an employee’s performance of safety-related duties.
B. Personal Electronic Devices
Except when deadheading in other than a controlling locomotive, railroad operating employees on duty (including supervisors) must have each electronic device turned off and stowed out of sight with any earpiece removed from the ear when:
• On moving rolling equipment or on track equipment unless device is being used to reference a railroad rule, special instruction, timetable or other directive,
• Any member of the crew is on the ground performing safety-related duties,
or
• Any employee is assisting in preparation of the train, engine(s) or on-track equipment.
• Any member of the crew is on the ground performing safety-related duties,
or
• Any employee is assisting in preparation of the train, engine(s) or on-track equipment.
A railroad operating employee may use an electronic device only for voice communication, texting or emailing when:
• Rolling and on track equipment is stopped,
• A job safety briefing is conducted with all crew members to confirm that it will not interfere with any safety-related or required duty,
• No member of crew will foul any track.
• A job safety briefing is conducted with all crew members to confirm that it will not interfere with any safety-related or required duty,
• No member of crew will foul any track.
When communication has been completed turn device off and stow out of sight.
A personal stand-alone camera may be used to take a photograph of a safety hazard or a violation of a rail safety law, regulation, order, or standard, provided that:
• A job safety briefing is conducted among all crewmembers and any other individuals in the controlling cab of moving equipment,
• It is turned off immediately after the photograph has been made;
• It is not used by an employee at the controls of moving equipment.
• It is turned off immediately after the photograph has been made;
• It is not used by an employee at the controls of moving equipment.
A personal stand-alone calculator, digital watch whose only purpose is as a timepiece and medical devices that are consistent with the railroad’s standards may be used as necessary in the
performance of duties.
C. Railroad-Supplied Electronic Devices
After a job safety briefing including all members of the crew determines railroad-supplied devices can be used safely, railroad operating employees may use such devices to send or receive work related information with:
• Railroad supervisors.
• Railroad customers.
• Railroad dispatchers.
• Railroad customer service employees.
or
• Other railroad employees as necessary in the performance of their duties.
• Railroad customers.
• Railroad dispatchers.
• Railroad customer service employees.
or
• Other railroad employees as necessary in the performance of their duties.
Railroad operating employees must not use a railroad-supplied electronic device for purposes other than which it was intended or while:
• Operating the controls of a moving locomotive unless device is being used to reference a railroad rule, special instruction, timetable or other directive.
• On the ground within 4 feet of any track.
• On the ground and engaged in an active switching operation.
• Riding rolling equipment during a switching operation.
• At the controls of the locomotive and any other employee is assisting in the preparation of the train, engine(s), or on-track equipment, including testing of railroad equipment or brakes.
• Inside the controlling cab of a locomotive, train or on-track equipment, unless there has been a job safety briefing and all crew members agree that it is safe to do so.
• Verbally obtaining or releasing mandatory directives when railroad radio communication is available.
• On the ground within 4 feet of any track.
• On the ground and engaged in an active switching operation.
• Riding rolling equipment during a switching operation.
• At the controls of the locomotive and any other employee is assisting in the preparation of the train, engine(s), or on-track equipment, including testing of railroad equipment or brakes.
• Inside the controlling cab of a locomotive, train or on-track equipment, unless there has been a job safety briefing and all crew members agree that it is safe to do so.
• Verbally obtaining or releasing mandatory directives when railroad radio communication is available.
The first bullet under 2.21 B is new. Until a few weeks ago, you couldn't even use your phone or other electronic device to refer to a rule unless everyone was in the cab and the train was stopped. This revision is a step in the right direction toward common sense, but still makes it impossible to refer to a rule when a crew member is on the ground.
It's also interesting (and important) to note that railroad operating employees "may use an electronic device only for voice communication, texting or emailing." Browsing the internet, facebooking, posting to discussion forums, watching YouTube or playing video games is not included in that list, and that includes when you're in a siding doing nothing but waiting for your turn to go.
BNSF has equipped most of their locomotives with a "purple box" called the Wi-Pu by Wi-Tronix, which is capable of detecting any phone or wireless activity in or near the cab. If your phone gets bumped and powers on, then begins searching for a wireless network you are busted. The device can be programmed to flag such activity and report it via satellite to the appropriate company officer(s).
So, yes it sucks that cab rides (on Class I railroads anyway) are pretty much a thing of the past and that cab videos are also not likely to surface anytime soon unless the author is already no longer employed by the railroad. But that's the way it is.
Thanks for sharing man.
Seems like they're pretty serious about no devices unless work related in the cab or while on duty.
I remember a couple years back, a train was stopped on one of the main lines in the city where I'm at. It stopped for about 10 minutes so the train crew could pick up an order of food to go. I thought that was kinda cool, that you can order takeout on a train and stop to pick it up. Haha.
Seems like they're pretty serious about no devices unless work related in the cab or while on duty.
I remember a couple years back, a train was stopped on one of the main lines in the city where I'm at. It stopped for about 10 minutes so the train crew could pick up an order of food to go. I thought that was kinda cool, that you can order takeout on a train and stop to pick it up. Haha.
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